In Conversation with Jon Shave

For over two decades, Jon Shave has been shaping the sound of modern pop music. From his early days at the legendary hit factory Xenomania—where he worked on era-defining tracks for Girls Aloud and Sugababes—to co-founding The Invisible Men and producing for some of the biggest artists in the world, his fingerprints are all over the charts. With over 21 billion streams to his name, Shave has mastered the art of reinvention, seamlessly moving between pop, hip-hop, and electronic music while keeping his signature touch intact.

In this exclusive interview, Shave reflects on his journey from studio apprentice to one of the most sought-after producers in the industry. He discusses the shifting landscape of music consumption, the creative chemistry behind hit-making, and his recent work on Charli XCX’s BRAT album. He also weighs in on the rise of AI in music production and shares his advice for the next generation of producers and songwriters.

Photo by Jono White

DS: You started your career in Xenomania in the early 2000s, working with acts like Sugababes. What was it like stepping into the industry, and how did that experience shape your approach to songwriting and production?

JS: The industry was completely different at that time. Since then, we have been through three or four eras of how people consume music. When I first joined, we still listened to CDs with the industry being ruled by gatekeepers. It was a case of trying to get your music listened to by the right people in the industry, whether that’d be radio, press, or the managers of artists. Going to Xenomania was such an amazing experience because I was 24 and thought I knew a lot. Looking back now, I really knew nothing and was thrown into the deep-end. I hadn’t even recorded a guitar and since I hadn’t done much recording with others, I wasn’t used to collaborating. It was a completely different ball game in the sense that it ended up showing me where the bar was for when I considered a track to be finished. I recorded pretty much all of the Girls Aloud vocals on their first twenty singles and also worked with Sugababes. You had to work well under time constraints without that pressure being translated to the artists and vocalists. 

Co-founding The Invisible Men in 2008 led to working with some of the biggest names in music. What was the creative dynamic within the team, and how did that collaboration influence your sound? At Xenomania, the structure was that Brian Higgins had a team working for him to execute his vision. For me, when I met Jason Pebworth and George Astasio, we were on a level playing field. This meant that it enabled me to learn and grow from their completely different backgrounds. They had been in bands and lived in LA for roughly 10 years before moving over to London. Through them, I learned about space and minimalism, rather than just throwing in as many different things into a track as possible. I think you can hear from the Xenomania records I contributed to that the approach was more ‘how much can we fit into a song’ before I learned this American approach. In terms of the dynamic, we had a complementary set of skills between us that meant we could throw around songs and build them through that process. I was mainly computer-production focussed with a bit of songwriting and George was an amazing bass player, guitarist and producer, and Jason was a singer-songwriter and keyboard player. 

Now that you’ve gone solo, how has your creative process changed compared to your time in The Invisible Men?

I felt that going solo meant I could bring together everything I’ve learned over the past twenty years. I came to a point where I felt confident and experienced enough to think, ‘Yeah I really want to try this.’ However, I continue to learn new things from the different people I collaborate with, so it’s an ever-shifting process. 

You’ve worked across multiple genres, from pop to hip-hop to electronic. What draws you to an artist or project, and how do you adapt your production style to fit their vision?

I have never been tied to any genre in particular and listen to a broad range of music. It’s difficult for me to articulate what that thread going through my work is, but, if someone were to listen to every single song I’ve been a part of, they’d probably find something in the coding of that. I would also say I’m drawn to the attitude of the artists’ work–whether that be a certain cheekiness, sassiness, tongue-in-cheek, or pushing an envelope in a playful way. I enjoy working with artists who are willing to get on that level. I connect with the artist lyrically before building the sonic world around that. That’s how I think I’ve been able to jump between genres, and ultimately, as long as I connect with the artist, it all becomes a fun journey of discovery between you. 

Many of your songs have become cultural moments–do you have a formula for making a hit, or is it more instinctual? 

In the old days, people could predict with more confidence that something was going to be a ‘hit’ because it sounded a certain way and was made by a certain artist. I think the word has been thrown around too frequently and shouldn’t be the focus when you set out to make a piece of art. One of the things I appreciate about the modern production of music, is how it’s impossible for anyone to call what is or isn’t going to be a ‘hit’. The power of the gatekeepers has been massively reduced and does a great job of not only focussing on what we think feels great, but what the consensus in the room is. The beauty of the internet is that you can reach anyone on it and there are a wealth of metrics to track that connection. I think that because of this, music has become better and more adventurous. 

How does working with an established artist like Miley Cyrus compare to collaborating with a rising star Lil Peep? 

With an established artist, you partly take on the role of being a custodian for their world and project. There’s a lot more responsibility if they have a track record of ‘big’ songs, which brings a whole world of pressure alongside it. If it does work out, it’s the most rewarding and exciting experience but it’s definitely more stressful. Working with Lil Peep was slightly different than working with other developing artists–he already made a blueprint of his sound which was so distinct before either I, or the team I was in, had met him. There was a balance of honouring that whilst building on it, too. There are other artists where this is less established so it becomes a process of trying different things and then just keeping going until you crack it. The key is not to give up. 

You studio in South West London–what makes it unique, how does the environment impact the music you create? 

It’s a relatively new setup for me in that it’s been two years post-COVID and is in my house. I have my family and two cats upstairs, and the artists feel free to make themselves a cup of tea. This homelike and comfortable environment works well to foster connections and ends up resulting in better music. 15 years prior to this, I worked in a shared space that was my management’s office. It resulted in many great records but no doubt, had a very different atmosphere. In the office, we were endlessly interrupted by people wanting to talk to the artist which I don’t have here. I’m proud of all the music coming out of this space and feel lucky to have it. It definitely also has a natural filter on things, meaning that I’m not going to do an all-night rap session or blare drum and bass at 3am. 

With over 21 billion streams and millions of record sales, how do you think streaming has changed the role of producers and songwriters in today’s industry?

Photo by Jono White

Focussing on the positive, I think it has reconnected the job of people like me to the listener. You can now tell if your music is connecting to the person and who that audience is. When you do connect, it’s a much more gratifying experience because it happens in real time where you can see it, feel it, and there’s nothing more exciting than a song going viral. On the flip side, it’s made things harder too, just in terms of the sheer volume of music that’s uploaded. Everyone’s attention is so fragmented as music is directly competing with everything else you could be streaming. I always choose to embrace these developments because we are, where we are, and we have to look for those exciting opportunities (which there are many of!).

The rise of AI in music production is a hot topic. Do you see it as a tool for creativity or a potential threat to the craft?

I think people are already using it as a tool and we’re at a critical point of protecting the meaning and value of copyright. There are already AI models that have been trained on the entire history of recorded music and that is an extremely threatening thing. I’m sure there will be some mind-blowing tools to come along that will become part of our workflow but it’s a double-edged sword. Functional music (any music used for background purposes or even certain score-type music) is looking extremely precarious because it’s the first thing AI could potentially take over. However, if we are awash with functional AI music, it might make the music of humans more valuable and ‘real’ artists more sought after. I feel as though a lot of what I do now is trying to identify who those artists are that need nurturing, and developing. I can’t imagine anyone booking an AI-generated show. Even with an avatar-driven show such as ABBA Voyage, it’s the most inspiring thing because of the song catalogue that comes with it and the emotional value and nostalgia attached to it. The way music or art works is all about how your favourite artist chooses to use their voice, and what they say with it. I don’t see how that can be replaced. 

The UK has always been a hub for musical innovation. How has London, specifically, influenced your sound and career? 

Growing up in the UK and being in proximity of London, has meant it’s always felt like a cultural melting pot. When I first started doing this professionally, having things like Radio 1 were massively influential because you’d hear every genre, and nothing felt off-limits. After becoming familiar with the American music market, and the segregation of either having to be ‘this’ or ‘that’ format, it was a new concept for me that I should or shouldn’t be doing anything. Getting records to cross over to multiple markets in America is a tough business but it’s made me all the more grateful for the diversity of UK culture and having grown up in it, as it’s given me a different perspective. 

Most recently, you, amongst others, were involved in the production of the Charli XCX BRAT album. How has that been different to other projects you’ve worked on? 

BRAT was completely different to other projects I’ve worked on, and there were a few elements that contributed to that. I’ve known Charli for over ten years and during that time, I had done bits and pieces of writing every two years or so for her. If you look at her career 15 years ago and compare it to the approach behind this record, she really reached this artistic epiphany in her own mind where she wasn’t making any compromises or concessions. She was resigned to the idea that it may not travel beyond her core fanbase, which gave her a certain level of freedom and unlocked bold and brave decisions. This then led to a whole new wave of creativity, energy and momentum. I think that boldness was the very thing that found the mass market appeal beyond the fanbase. I’ve followed her journey closely and dipped in and out of being involved, but I am first and foremost a fan of her and everything she does. It’s always the most satisfying experience when the unexpected happens and things take on a life of their own. 

Is there a sonic direction you’re thinking of exploring in the future? 

With sonics, I feel like with whatever you’ve just done, you should do something completely different. What I’m not trying to do is make something BRAT derivative, as it was a moment for bold sonics and it’s been done now. I find the best thing is to deliberately try not to repeat that because you can’t. 

Having been in the industry for over two decades, what advice would you give to up-and-coming producers and songwriters? 

I think the main two things are to collaborate as much as possible and not to give up. I saw a quote that said, ‘a successful person is someone who didn’t give up.’ I really believe that you have to find a way to keep going and if you can survive doing this, then you’re probably already putting yourself in the top 1%. It’s something that lots of people try to do but it’s hard to make a living of, but you have to back yourself and just keep going.